Historical Jesus Summary : No
Reliable Evidence
(Top Posts - Distance From Belief
in christianity - 022605)

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The following referenced website has a lot of information
doubting both the new testamyth christian gospels -and-
epistles, as well as a section doubting non-christian sources
used by some to promote an historical Jesus. Also, the
website includes

o a section on frauds involving a supposed Jesus char-
   acter,

o the absence of writings about a supposed Jesus char-
   acter during the lifetime when such a character would
   had to have existed, based on the new testamyth itself,

o the absence of sources for any Jesus material as far
   as independent corroboration of actual first-hand wit-
   nesses -- hearsay is the key word when it comes to
   'Jesus' claims

o origins for many of the myths in the new testamyth

o discussion of how trying to manufacture heroes was
   common in ancient days, with godlike men (refer
   to evemerism)

o scholarly bias of christian scholars explained

o many quotes on views of those skeptical towards the
   claims that the new testamyth Jesus actually existed
   as anything other than a hodgepodge of myths, most
   of which were based on prior-existing myths

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---
Did a historical Jesus exist?

by Jim Walker, originated: 12 June 1997 /
additions: 25 May 2004
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
---

Excerpt:

...

NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES

Virtually all other claims of Jesus come from sources
outside of Christian writings. Devastating to the claims
of Christians, however, comes from the fact that all of
these accounts come from authors who lived after the
alleged life of Jesus. Since they did not live during the
time of the hypothetical Jesus, none of their accounts
serve as eyewitness evidence.

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Josephus Flavius

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the
earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although
many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of
Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpe-
trated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius),
Josephus got born in 37 C.E., after the alleged cruci-
fixion of Jesus, and wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E. after
the first gospels got written. Therefore, even if his
accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his in-
formation could only serve as hearsay.

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Pliny the Younger

Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, got born in 62 C.E.
His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his
information from Christian believers themselves. Re-
gardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of
eyewitness accounts.

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Tacitus

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts
him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief
mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44),
which got written around 109 C.E. He gives no source for
his material. Although there occur many disputes as to the
authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that
his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the
Annals during the formation of Christianity, it can only pro-
vide us with hearsay accounts.

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Suetonius

Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E. who men-
tions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume
that "Chrestus" means "Christ." But even if Suetonius had
meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus.
Just like all the others, Suetonius birth occurred after the
purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

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Talmud

Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of
the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law,
including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for
Jesus. They claim that Yeshu (a common name in Jewish
literature) in the Talmud refers to Jesus.

However, this Jesus, according to Gerald Massey actually
depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a
century before the alleged Christian Jesus.

[Massey] Regardless of how one interprets this, the Pales-
tinian Talmud got written between the 3rd and 5th century
C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th
century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged cruci-
fixion! At best it can only serve as controversial Christian
and pagan legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence
for a historical Jesus.

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The above sources get quoted the most as "evidence" for
Jesus by Christians. All other sources (Christian and non-
Christian), some of which include:

Mara Bar-Serapion (circa 73 C.E.),
Ignatius (50 - 98? C.E.),
Polycarp (69 - 155 C.E.),
Clement of Rome (? - circa 160 C.E.),
Justin Martyr (100 - 165 C.E.),
Lucian (cira 125 - 180 C.E.),
Tertullian (160 - ? C.E.),
Clement of Alexandria (? - 215 C.E.),
Origen (185 - 232 C.E.),
Hippolytus (? - 236 C.E.), and
Cyprian (? - 254 C.E.).

All these people got born well after the alleged death of
Jesus. Not one of them provides an eyewitness account,
all of them simply spout hearsay.

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As you can see, apologist Christians embarrass themselves
when they unwittingly or deceptively violate the rules of his-
toriography by using after-the-event writings as evidence
for the event itself.

Not one of these writers gives a source or backs up his
claims with evidential material about Jesus.

Although we can provide numerous reasons why the
Christian and non-Christian sources prove spurious, and
argue endlessly about them, we can cut to the chase by
simply looking at the dates of the documents and the birth
dates of the authors.

It doesn't matter what these people wrote about Jesus,
an author who writes after the alleged happening and
gives no detectable sources for his material can only
give example of hearsay.

All of the post writings about Jesus could easily have
come from the beliefs and stories from Christian be-
lievers themselves.

...

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Other references regarding Jesus claims:

Here are a few links/excerpts to information some
may be unaware of, for social/cultural/religious
reasons, regarding the Jesus of christianity and
the Jesus of islam:

Jesus characters / Christ characters?

---
Aside - a couple of web sites for a humorous break
from the Jesus quest -- an adventure which has yet
to find historically reliable validation for a supposed
son (called Jesus in the christian bible) of a sup-
posed god, or a supposed prophet (called Jesus
in the quran) of a supposed allah ...

Jesus vs. Elvis
http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/jesus_vs_elvis.html

Top Ten Reasons Why Beer Is Better Than Jesus
http://freethought.tamu.edu/~blemoine/top_ten.html

End Aside
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Jesus was _______ (fill in the blank with all secular
history on any Jesus characters deemed to be his-
torically relevant prior to 40 C.E., with evidence of a
non-supernatural, contemporaneous, and objectively
verifiable nature).

Then, based on what's in that blank, compare that to
the following:

~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~

1. Four Elephants reveal non-existence of Jesus?
http://prohuman.net/disbelief/four_elephants.htm
"Jesus' life and death was God's revelation that our
personal salvation from sins --like torture and murder--
is to be effected by our torture and murder of the
divine emissary himself. ... I would characterize what
we do encounter as a quartet of elephants in the room,
which the defenders of an historical Jesus must try to
ignore or work their way around. ..."

2. The Jesus Doubt File
http://prohuman.net/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus was
a mythical creation -or- an overly ambitious series
of creative extrapolations pertaining to a human who,
if he even ...

3. Helpful information to refute claims that 'Jesus
Christ - Son of God & a Virgin' existed
http://prohuman.net/disbelief/refute_claims_that
_jesus_existed.htm

... the winner of the christ contest was merely the
belief system most adept at combining the power
of the promise of immortality with the power of the
state and the power of ...

4. Top Books/Videos for SHANANNAREEFERS
(Christian Criticism)
http://prohuman.net/top_books_videos_christian_criticism.htm
Top Books/Videos on Christian Criticism, for Seekers,
Humanists, Atheists, Naturalists, Agnostics, Non-
religionists, Nontheists, Antireligionists, Realists,
Educationalists, Experimentalists

5. Jesus Christ, Supermyth
http://prohuman.net/disbelief/jesus_christ_supermyth.htm
The assertion at issue is that Jesus existed, some
say as a man, some say as a resurrected ...

6. The Jesus Mysteries
http://prohuman.net/history/jesus_mysteries.htm
... which pertains to a controversial subject, Jesus
Christ, said subject having stirred up emotions on all
sides of the issue, amongst disbelievers / doubters ...

7. Jesus
http://prohuman.net/disbelief/jesus.htm
... recently submitted a challenge to my doubt/disbelief
regarding the literalist interpretation of the Jesus character
of the new testamyth ... to which I replied as follows ...

8. Pro-Humanist FREELOVER Daily - 112401
http://prohuman.net/2001/11/24.htm
... First Human Cloned Embryo ... Dead Sea Scrolls
to Cause Vatican to Revise the Bible ...

9. Pro-Humanist FREELOVER Daily - 090701
http://prohuman.net/prohumanistfreeloverdaily/090701.htm
WWJD - What Would Jesus Do? ... New Species'
Genes Near One Another ... 'Black Wave' Could
Sweep Universe ...

10. The Nature of Christian Brainwashing - Immoral
Path to Delusion
http://prohuman.net/disbelief/nature_of_brainwashing.htm
Cover up the downsides of religious history, threaten
children with eternal damnation if they don't believe the
christian view, and treat all other religions and freedom ...

11. Reasoning your way to no god, no christ
http://prohuman.net/disbelief/reasoning_your_way_to
_no_god.htm

... son of god called Jesus. The point of the position
of Jesus as myth is that the Catholic Jesus godman
and the historical Jesus godman are demonstrably ...

12. Evemerism
http://prohuman.net/history/evemerism.htm
... Evemerism, named after Evemeras, a 4th Century
B.C.E. Greek philosopher who developed the idea
that, rather than being mythological creatures as was
accepted by the ...

13. Bloody Sacrificial Salvation
http://prohuman.net/history/bloody_sacrificial_salvation.htm
... primitive concept from primitive and ancient cultures,
with the one surviving icon perpetuated to this day, with
excerpt from the notes to The Jesus Puzzle, ...

14. Archaeology refutes the Bible's claim to history
http://prohuman.net/history/archaeology_refutes_bible.htm
The following provides a detailed analysis of a book
which provides details on why the fundamentalist /
literalist interpretation of the pentateuch, the christian
bible, and the quran, fall far short when it comes to
the historical claims made in those documents. ...

15. Gnosticism
http://prohuman.net/history/gnosticism.htm
Links to/excerpts from some key information in the
Encyclopedia Britannica, related directly or indirectly
to Gnosticism. ...

16. Mesopotamian Foundations for the origins
of Judaism, some of which led, eventually,
to the origins of Christianity
http://prohuman.net/history/mesopotamian_foundations_for.htm

17-20. Middle Eastern/Greek/Roman Foundations
for the origins of Judaism and Christianity
http://prohuman.net/history/mideast_greek_roman1.htm
http://prohuman.net/history/mideast_greek_roman2.htm
http://prohuman.net/history/mideast_greek_roman3.htm
http://prohuman.net/history/mideast_greek_roman4.htm

21. Greco-Roman Foundations for the origins of Christianity
http://prohuman.net/history/greco_roman_foundations_for.htm

22. Rome: Power & Glory
http://prohuman.net/history/rome_power_and_glory.htm
... Fascinating overview of the Roman origins,
Republic, Empire, Emperors, subjects, slaves,
conquests, and the conquered. ...

23. James - son of Joseph - brother of
Jesus ossuary inscription forged
http://prohuman.net/science/james_ossuary
_inscription_forged.htm

... Fascinating report on how legitimate scien-
tific inquiry, given sufficient time / skepticism /
resources, can excel in getting to the truth of
the matter regarding ancient artefacts ...

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