Helpful information to refute claims that
'Jesus Christ - Son of God & a Virgin' existed
(Top Posts - Distance From Belief
in christianity - 053102, updated 031709)

First off, the old testament - what's up with that being the
starting point for the christian faith's new testament? Why
start a faith with a book of myths and violence and claims
that a superbeing be-all end-all has a violent self-centered

Archaeology refutes the Bible's
claim to history (043002)
"The following provides a detailed analysis of a book
which provides details on why the fundamentalist/
literalist interpretation of the pentateuch, the christian
bible, and the quran, fall far short when it comes to
the historical claims made in those documents. ..."


The Bible Unearthed : Archaeology's New Vision
of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
by Israel Finkelstein, Neil Asher Silberman
Hardcover - (January 2001) 304 pages
Excerpt: "... reconsideration of the historical period
that produced the Hebrew Bible.

The headline news in this book is easy to pick out:
there is no evidence for the existence of Abraham,
or any of the Patriarchs; ditto for Moses and the
Exodus; and the same goes for the whole period
of Judges and the united monarchy of David and
Solomon. ...

Unlike the millions who revere the Hebrew Bible (the
Old Testament) as the word of God, Finkelstein and
Silberman approach it as a distinctly human record,
one bearing the marks not of careful historians but
rather of impassioned visionaries struggling to wrest
transcendent meaning out of the whirlwind of events.

Following a trail of evidence uncovered in recent
decades by archaeologists working throughout the
Near East, the authors find no corroboration for the
biblical accounts of Abraham or Joseph or Moses.

And although archaeology does verify the historical
reality of David and Solomon, it exposes their empire
as a mere shadow of that ascribed to them in Scripture.

Clue by clue, a pattern of discrepancies accumulates
separating archaeology from Scripture, so revealing
the authorial fingerprint of an embattled group of
religious leaders, fighting valiantly against political
treachery and spiritual apostasy. ..."

- - -

The following is excerpted from an article by pastor William
Edelen at

"There is a sin among a large segment of the Christian clergy that
I find despicable. It is the sin of omission, the sin of silence. It is
the sin of promoting falsehoods in order to hold your job. It is
the sin of not sharing with a congregation what you know to be
true about the bible and Christianity.

Those graduating in religious studies from every major university
in America, as well as every major theological seminary that is
independent of Christian financial pressure, know certain facts
to be true.

They know that:

1. The entire bible is saturated with common mythological themes,
from the creation and flood myth to virgin birth and resurrected
hero mythology.

2. The stories of the patriarchs in the Old Testament are known as
'temple legends' to enhance the history of the Hebrew people and
are mostly fictional.

3. The gospels were not written by anyone who knew Jesus

4. The 'Christ' myths and formulas are direct copies of Zoroastrian
myths adopted by the Jesus sect.

5. These facts, with others, have been known for years, and taught
by internationally respected scholars from major universities world

- - -

How did the Romans (at emperor Constantine's direction)
go about sanctifying a real-life "Jesus Christ - son of God
& a Virgin" (close to 300 years after he died, had he ever
lived, based on the christian New Testament gospels) over
the competing christian faiths that worshipped a heavenly
christ -or- thought Jesus existed as a man, not a deity?

They simply utilized a concept known as "Evemerism":

Evemerism (050102)
"... Evemerism, named after Evemeras, a 4th
Century B.C.E. Greek philosopher who devel-
oped the idea that, rather than being mytholog-
ical creatures as was accepted by the reigning
intellectuals, the gods of old were in fact historical
characters, kings, emperors and heroes whose
exploits were then deified. ..."


Simply put, the origins for present-day christianity resulted
from two significant elements in ancient times:

1) the power of the promise of immortality (a popular notion
before, during, and after the Romans chose the texts to place
into a document called the bible and voted on the modern
basis for christianity in the 4th century CE) and

2) the efforts of the power of the Roman state to make a
particular kind of christianity the state religion (said efforts
resulting in the destruction of competing religions as well as
the killing of many non-christians and many christians [after
325 A.D.] who practiced types of christianity deviating from
the Roman-blessed one) ...

Compare these factors to the christian focus on those chris-
tians who died prior to Roman christianization (often expressed
regarding christians who died when the Romans were pagans)
juxtaposed against scant mention (by christians) of the Chris
tians of competing forms of christianity (and the non-christians)
who died after christianity was combined with the power of the
Roman empire, as the official state religion ...

... and then, perhaps, the fog will clear and you'll come to under-
stand that the winner of the christ contest was merely the belief
system most adept at combining the power of the promise of
immortality with the power of the state and the power of the
sword (and other methods of violence), one amongst many com-
petitors, all superstitious in origins / nature, all equally worthy of
placement in the category known as "religious myth".

- - -

Genealogies of Jesus from Matthew and Luke (David to Jesus)

Those who are not with Jesus are against him.
Those who are not against Jesus are for him.

If Jesus bears witness for himself, his witness will not be true.
Jesus bears witness for himself, yet his witness is true.

Jesus came to bring peace.
Jesus did not come to bring peace.

There are some things that Jesus lacks the power to do.
Jesus is all-powerful.

Per the Old Testament, honor your parents.
Per the Jesus of the New Testament, disrespect and hate your parents.

Jesus was silent in his trial before Pilate.
Jesus made lengthy speeches in his trial before Pilate.

Both thieves reviled Jesus.
Only one thief reviled Jesus.

The disciples were frightened when they saw Jesus.
The disciples were gladdened when they saw Jesus.

Jesus judges everyone.
Jesus judges no one.

It is possible to fall from grace.
It is not possible to fall from grace.

Jesus said that he'd return before his disciples can
preach throughout Israel.
Jesus said that he'd return after the gospel
is preached throughout the world.

No, the gospel is not to be preached to the Gentiles and Samaritans.
Yes, the gospel is to be preached to everyone, including the Gentiles
and Samaritans.

Christians must obey the laws of the Old Testament.
Christians are not bound by Old Testament laws.

Humans are to serve God only.
Some humans must serve other humans.

The true followers of Christ routinely perform the following
tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2)speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents,
4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching

- - -

Were there a substantial number of other faiths (far earlier
than the Jesus Christ of the New Testamyth would have
had to exist) that had a son of god as part of their religion?


Do Parts of the Bible Come From Pagan Mythology?

Key Excerpts:

"... Pagan spirituality in ancient times was composed of two

o The Outer Mysteries consisted of Pagan beliefs and practices
which were widely disseminated and taught to the general public.
Knowledge of these has been preserved in historical records.

o The Inner Mysteries were revealed only to those who had
been initiated into the Pagan religions. The initiates learned that
Osiris-Dionysus was not a historical person. His legends were
simple 'spiritual allegories encoding spiritual teachings.'


Late in the 4th century CE, Christianity was established as the
state religion. Pagans were given the choice of converting to
Christianity, being exterminated or being exiled. Their temples
were either stolen for use as Christian churches, or destroyed.
Eventually, detailed knowledge of the inner mysteries was lost.

The core of the Outer and Inner mysteries was a mythical,
male entity who was part god and part human -- often referred
to as a 'godman.' The biographies of these godmen were
consistent from religion to religion. The main difference
among the faiths was his name ...

o Alexandria: Aion
o Asia Minor: Attis
o Babylonia: Antiochus
o Egypt: Osiris
o Greece: Dionysus, Asclepius
o Syria: Adonis
o Italy: Bacchus
o Persia: Mithras

These were viewed as mythical characters. There were also some
self-proclaimed godmen -- humans who actually lived on earth.

Two are:

o Samos, Italy: Pythagoras (569 to circa 475 BCE)
o Sicily: Empedocles (circa 450 to 390 BCE)


Osiris in Egypt may have been the first godman. His story has
been found recorded in pyramid texts which were written prior
to 2,500 BCE.

These saviors were truly interchangeable. Coins have been found
with Dionysus on one side and Mithras on the other. A person
who was initiated into one of the mysteries had no difficulty
switching to another Pagan mystery religion.

In the 3rd century CE, these godmen were referred to by the
composite name 'Osiris-Dionysus.' Authors Timothy Freke
and Peter Gandy have used this term in their book 'The Jesus


Life events shared by Osiris-Dionysus and Jesus:

The following stories appear both in the Gospels and in the
myths of many of the godmen:


o God was his father. This was believed to be literally true
in the case of Osiris-Dionysus; their God came to earth and
engaged in sexual intercourse with a human. The father of
Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).

o A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.


o He was born in a cave or cowshed. Luke 2:7 mentions that
Jesus was placed in a manger - an eating trough for animals.
An early Christian tradition said that the manger was in a cave.

o His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.


o At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting
water into wine.

o He was powerless to perform miracles in his home town.

o His followers were born-again through baptism in water.

o He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records
that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.

o He had 12 disciples.

o He was accused of licentious behavior.

Execution, resurrection, etc:

o He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.

o He died 'as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.'

o He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.

o After death, he descended into hell.

o On the third day after his death, he returned to life.

o The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female

o He later ascended to heaven.

His titles:

o God made flesh.

o Savior of the world.

o Son of God.

Beliefs about the Godman:

o He is 'God made man,' and equal to the Father.

o He will return in the last days.

o He will judge the human race at that time.

o Humans are separated from God by original sin. The
godman's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God
and atones for the original sin.

All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before
Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying
occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his
biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not


Life events shared by Jesus and one other godman:

Some stories appear both in Jesus' biography and in the legends
of a single godman:

Mother's pregnancy:

o It was a common belief among early Christians that Mary was
pregnant for only seven months. This legend is preserved in the
Gospel of the Hebrews. Although this gospel was widely used
by early Christians, it was never accepted into the official canon.
Semele, mother of Dionysus, was also believed to have had
a 7 month pregnancy.

Virgin birth:

o Author William Harwood has written that Jesus' "equation
in Greek eyes with the resurrected savior-god Dionysus led
an interpolator to insert a virgin-birth myth into the gospel now
known as Matthew."

Birth Witnesses:

o The gospel of Matthew records that Jesus was visited by an
unknown number of wise men, called Magi.

- Freke & Gandy identify them as followers of the godman
Mithras from Persia.

- Most other sources believe that they were Zoroastrian priests
from Persia who were experts in astrology. There is a Zoroastrian
belief 'that a son of Zoroaster will be born many years after his
death by a virgin...This son will apparantly [sic] raise the dead
and crush the forces of evil. Later Christians got rather excited
about this apparant [sic] pagan prophecy of the coming of the

o The gospel of Luke records that Jesus was visited by three
shepherds. Mithra the godman from Persia was also visited
shortly after birth by three shepherds.

o The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. A Pagan
belief from the 6th century BCE states that these are the
precise materials to use when worshiping God.


o Jesus is recorded throughout the gospels as healing the
sick and restoring the dead to life. So was Asclepius, a
Greek godman. Pagans and early Christians debated who
was the more effective healer.


o Jesus appeared as a wandering holy man who is later
transfigured in the presence of some of his disciples.
Dionysus was portrayed in the same manner in Euripides'
play The Bacchae, written in 410 BCE.


o Both Jesus and Empedocles were recorded as teaching
spiritual truths, curing illness, foretelling the future, controlling
the wind and rain, and raising people from the dead.

o Both Mithra and Jesus performed many healings of the sick
and mentally ill; both raised the dead.

o Mark, chapter 5 describes Jesus driving demons from a man
into a herd of about 2,000 pigs who rushed over a cliff and
drowned. In Eleusis, about 2,000 initiates would bathe in the
sea. Each had a young pig to which the believers' sins would
be transferred. The pigs were then chased over a chasm and


o John 21:11 records that Jesus performed a miracle which
enabled Simon Peter to catch exactly 153 fish. The Pagan
Pythagoras considered 153 a sacred number. The ratio of
153 to 265 was referred to by the Pagan Archimedes as
'the measure of the fish.' That ratio is used to generate
a fish-like shape using two circles. The sign of the fish
was used by the early Christians as their main symbol.


o Both celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples
before his death.

o Dionysus is described in Euripides' play The Bacchae
as bringing a new religion to the people, being plotted
against by the leaders, being arrested and appearing
before the political ruler. Dionysus said to his captors
'You know not what you are doing..,'" almost replicating
Jesus' words at the cross. He was unjustly accused and
executed. All of these themes are seen in the Gospels.

Crucifixion & resurrection:

o An ancient Greek amulet has been preserved from the
3rd century CE. It shows a man being crucified on
a Roman cross. The caption reads 'Orpheus Bacchus'
one of the pseudonyms of Osiris-Dionysus. A photograph
can be seen at

o Jesus' body was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh
and aloe. Osiris was also said to have been wrapped in linen
and anointed with myrrh.

Again, the godmen myths had been circulating well before
Jesus birth. The Christians would have copied earlier Pagan
material, not vice-versa.


... Freke & Gandy have concluded that the original, main
Christian movement was Gnostic Christianity.

They kept their inner mysteries secret, revealing them only
to those who have been initiated into the faith.

Some early non_Gnostic, 'literalist' Christians were unaware
of the inner mysteries of Gnosticism. They came to accept
the Gnostic outer mysteries and their myth of a godman
savior as an actual description of the historical Jesus. The
literalist Christians, being ignorant of the inner mysteries,
did not realize that the godman story was only a legend
about a mythical being. Decades later, literalist Christianity
became the dominant movement. They oppressed and
exterminated the Gnostics. ..."

- - -

The Jesus Mysteries : Was the 'Original Jesus'
a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy
"This astonishing book completely undermines
the traditional history of Christianity that has been
perpetuated for centuries by the Church. Drawing
on the cutting edge of modern scholarship, authors
Tim Freke and Peter Gandy present overwhelming
evidence that the Jesus of the New Testament is
a mythical figure.

Far from being eyewitness accounts, as is traditionally
held, the Gospels are actually Jewish adaptations of
ancient Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting
godman Osiris-Dionysus. The supernatural story of
Jesus is not the history of a miraculous Messiah, but
a carefully crafted spiritual allegory designed to guide
initiates on a journey of mystical discovery.

A little more than a century ago most people believed
that the strange story of Adam and Eve was history;
today it is understood to be a myth. Within a few
decades, Freke and Gandy argue, we will likewise
be amazed that the fabulous story of God incarnate
-- who was born of a virgin, who turned water into
wine, and who rose from the dead -- could have
been interpreted as anything but a profound parable. ..."

- - -

The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with
a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence
of an Historical Jesus, by Earl J. Doherty
From the Back Cover: " Why are the events of
the Gospel story, and its central character Jesus
of Nazareth, not found in the New Testament
epistles? Why does Paul's divine Christ seem
to have no connection to the Gospel Jesus, but
closely resembles the many pagan savior gods
of the time who lived only in myth?

Why, given the spread of Christianity across the
Roman Empire in the first century, did only one
Christian community compose a story of Jesus'
life and death-the Gospel of Mark-while every
other Gospel simply copied and reworked the
first one? Why is every detail in the Gospel story
of Jesus' trial and crucifixion drawn from passages
in the Old Testament?

The answer to these and other questions surrounding
the New Testament will come as a shock to those
who imagine that the origins of Christianity and the
figure of Jesus are securely represented by Christian
tradition and the Gospels. With the arrival of the
third millennium, the time has come to face the
stunning realization that for the last 1900 years,
Christianity has revered a founder and icon of the
faith who probably never existed.

- - -

A few comments from yours truly ...

Per the Encyclopedia Britannica, unknown, anonymous,
unknown, and unknown about sum it up as regards the
writers of the christian bible gospels, with a "Q" docu-
ment (thought by some scholars to be a source for some
parts of the gospels) a definite unknown with no name.

Other documents uncovered recently (Nag Hammadi)
depict another christ figure called Jesus, a Gnostic christ,
a contradiction to the Jesus of the New Testament christian

The Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls show no Jesus (and the
Roman Catholic church is currently updating the christian
bible based on the contents of the scrolls), as iterated in
the following article:

Dead Sea Scrolls to Cause Vatican to Revise the Bible

The facts thus far revealed (many heretofore widely known)
regarding the complete dead sea scrolls (recently published):

o No Jesus (supposedly due to the burying of the scrolls
prior to the time the Jesus stories were written up [one must
wonder how such a supposedly important character was
missing as of 68AD, close to 40 years after he would have
died, had he ever lived], although the scrolls were buried
after Paul's christ stories were written),

o No virgin birth (apparently a translation error of Greek from

o Contradictory pentateuchs,

o Further revelation of the ever-changing nature of "the bible"

o A 5-year plan by the Vatican to revise impacted parts of
"the bible"

Excerpts from an article describing some of these tidbits of
information leaking out about the scrolls:

- - - begin excerpts - - -

Publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls – 15,000 papyrus docu-
ments discovered in the desert that have changed scholars'
views on the Bible – is finally being completed, after more
than half a century of bitter squabbling, censorship and aca-
demic controversy.

Fifty-four years after the first of them was found in a cave
in Qumran, on the north-western shore of the Dead Sea,
publication of all the scrolls and fragments has been com-
pleted in 37 volumes.

All but two have been published in scholarly editions, and
those two are being edited.

The scrolls are believed to have been written by a Jewish
sect sometime between 200BC and early in the 1st century
AD, and the first were rediscovered in a cave by a shepherd
boy in 1947.

The theory is that they were hidden there in 68AD during the
Jewish revolt against the Romans. Others were found in nearby
caves during the 1950s.

The completion of publication is a landmark for academics
and for Christians and Jews, whose most dearly held beliefs
have been challenged by the scrolls – including that of the
Virgin birth of Christ, which arose from the use of the word
for virgin in early Greek versions of the Bible. The scrolls
reveal that this was a mistranslation: the original Hebrew
word used simply meant young woman.

Now the completion of the scrolls' publication coincides
with an admission by the Vatican that it is to revise parts
of the Bible accordingly, a task likely to take five years.

- - - end excerpts - - -

- - -

What did the supposedly real-life Jesus write? Nothing,
giving one pause to ponder if he really existed at all,
being that you'd think a son of god would be able-
willing-ready to pass on the knowledge of the myster-
ious other-world, in this, his one sure shot at it, in an
official written "holy" document of major importance
to humankind.

- - -

The Other Jesus (Newsweek - March 27, 2000)

[article no longer available at the Newsweek web site; you
can, however, find it transcribed to other web sites or you
may purchase it via the Newsweek archives site]

Excerpt: "To Christians, Jesus is the Son of God. But the
world's other great religions have their own visions of a
legendary figure. ... the lack of extra-Biblical evidence for
the existence of Jesus has led more than one critic to
conclude that he is a Christian fiction created by the early
church. ... Christian persecution of the Jews made dialogue
about Jesus impossible in the Middle Ages ...

What Muslims believe about Jesus comes from the Qur'an-
not the New Testament, which they consider tainted by
human error. They also draw upon their own oral traditions ...
the infant Jesus announces that he is God's prophet, though
not God's son, since Allah is 'above having a son' according
to the Qur'an. ...

In India there is a strong tradition that the teenage Jesus
slipped away from his parents, journeyed across Southeast
Asia learning yogic meditation and returned home to become
a guru to the Jews ... To Hindus, India is the Holy Land, its
sacred mountains and rivers enlivened by more than 300,000
local deities. It is only natural, then, that Jesus would come
to India to learn the secrets of unlocking his own inherent
divinity. ...

The life stories of Jesus and the Buddha are strikingly similar ...
when Buddhists encounter Christianity they depersonalize
the Jesus who walked this earth and transform him into a
figure more like Buddha. ... He believed in sin, which is not
a Buddhist concept. Jesus did not teach compassion as
a way of removing bad karma, nor did he see life as a cycle
of death and rebirth. In short, says the Dalai Lama, trying
to meld Jesus into Buddha 'is like putting a yak's head on
a sheep's body.' It doesn't work. ..."

- - -

The Origin Approach

Excerpt: "The earliest approach was an attempt to
explain ritual, as well as religion, by means of a theory
concerned with historical origin. In most cases, this
theory also assumed an evolutionary hypothesis that
would explain the development of ritual behaviour
through history. ...

In the search for an origin of ritual, research turned
from the well-known literate cultures to those that
appeared to be less complex and preliterate. The use
of the terms primitive religion and primitive cultures
comes from this approach in seeking an answer to
the meaning of ritual, myth, and religion.

Various cultures and rituals were singled out, sacrifice
of either men or animals becoming one of the main
topics for speculation, though the exact motivation
or cause of sacrificial ritual was disputed among the
leading authors of the theory.

For W. Robertson Smith, a British biblical scholar
who first published his theory in the ninth edition of
Encyclopędia Britannica (1875-89), sacrifice was
motivated by the desire for communion between
members of a primitive group and their god.

The origin of ritual, therefore, was believed to be
found in totemic (animal symbolic clan) cults; and
totemism, for many authors, was thus believed to
be the earliest stage of religion and ritual. The
various stages of ritual development and evolution,
however, were never agreed upon.

Given this origin hypothesis, rituals of purification,
gift giving, piacular (expiatory) rites, and worship
were viewed as developments, or secondary stages,
of the original sacrificial ritual. The Christian Eucharist
(Holy Communion), along with contemporary banquets
and table etiquette, were explained as late developments
or traits that had their origin and meaning in the totemic
sacrifice. ..."


Bloody Sacrificial Salvation ... a primitive concept from
primitive and ancient cultures, with the one surviving icon
perpetuated to this day

- - -

What influences, other than the gospel and epistle writings,
impacted the origins and spread of christianity?

Greco-Roman Foundations For ...
the origins of Christianity


Rome: Power & Glory


Middle Eastern/Greek/Roman
Foundations For ... the origins
of Judaism and Christianity


Egyptian Foundations For ... concepts impacting
the development of philosophies within Judaism
and Christianity


Iranian Foundations For ... the origins of theological
concepts which impacted how humans perceived the
interactions between the spirit world and the real
world, with some of those concepts having an impact
on the development of Judaism and Christianity


Mesopotamian Foundations For ... the origins of
Judaism, some of which led, eventually, to the origins
of Christianity

- - -

What happened after the Jesus Christ stories/religions
became entrenched in western culture?

Christian Church History
"... I do think the Roman Catholic religion
is a disease of the mind which has a
particular epidemiology similar to that of
a virus... -Richard Dawkins ..."


The Church as Sinner (041701)
"... Constantine's Sword : The Church and
the Jews: A History ... by James Carroll ...
maps the profoundly troubling two-thousand-
year course of the battle against Judaism and
faces the crisis of faith it has provoked in his
own life as a Catholic. More than a chronicle
of religion, this dark history is the central tra-
gedy of Western civilization, its fault lines
reaching deep into our culture. ..."

- - -