Patriotism


		Patriotism (Top Posts - Social/Legal - 070408 to 072008) Excerpts from posts made in Patriotism thread, from July 4, 2008 to July 20, 2008: July 4, 2008 Someone wrote: > [...] I ask each who sees this to pull up and read the > declaration which we celebrate today with an eye > towards understanding the meaning of its authors > and its profound historical significance. I replied to each post preceded with ">" marks, as follows: - - - Declaration of Independence http://tinyurl.com/decofind - - - The Declaration of Independence was primarily a list of grievances against King George III, stating the reasons underlying the revolt, said reasons mak- ing up most of the document. Notably absent, any opposing views, or any idea whatsoever that God or Nature's God or the Creator (whatever supposed supreme authority the writers of the DoI were referencing, there) might be inclined to favor those on the opposite side of the revolt. Typically empty, the calls to supreme author- ity which have been used by all groups who lean on lip service to religion for power, always stating that the supposed supreme authority is on their side, without one iota of evidence that a supreme authority either exists -or- is in favor of a particular side in a war or civil war or revolt. - - - Someone wrote: > When the will to power is in charge, > the higher the ideals, the lower the results. > - Lao Tzu Will to power, was that part of the revolt which established this country? High ideals, didn't the revolt have high ideals? Lower the results, didn't the revolt have the desired result, and wasn't the result a reflection of high ideals? - - - July 5, 2008 Someone wrote: > the core premise of the DOI is that the "Creator" > indowed humam beings with rights. > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all > men are created equal, that they are endowed by > their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that > among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of > happiness." The DoI mentions "their Creator", not "the Creator". As humankind has learned since then, "their Creator" is at least a result of a multi-billion year process entailing the totality of naturalistic events and evolution in this particular universe we happen to find ourselves in. Also revealing, the possibility (some scien- tists go so far as to state it in terms of high probability) that the particular space-time continuum we happen to exist in is but one of an infinite number. In that context, if true, "their Creator" would, technically consist of the totality of that infinity unless one chose to constrain his perspective to merely the events occurring since our particular space-time continuum began. As for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of hap- piness", this country has acted in a manner counter to those basic principles at times, o committing acts of war on its enemies resulting in loss of life to enemy combat- ants -and- civilians, o murdering individuals as a result of trials which (since DNA evidence became a part of the judicial process) have been shown to have been (in an alarming number of cases) dead wrong, o committing act of war on itself (the Amer- ican Civil War), o denying liberty to blacks and negroes and native Americans and many immigrants during large stretches of history, and o witness the debacles that have occurred in an effort to oppose pursuit of happiness via alcohol prohibition and via the current drug prohibition (aka, the drug war on Americans and on the entire world to the extent that America has caused other coun- tries to imprison or kill its drug producers or users). - - - Also, on the "pursuit of happiness" front, in actuality, the stark disparity in the economic and health status of the American citizenry reveals that America has failed to live up to the ideal of the Constitution, by instituting policies that have widened the gap between rich and poor, that have created a hierarchy of greed and 'rich get richer' at the tiny top of the spectrum, with the overwhelming majority little more than slaves to a corrupt system predisposed to shifting most of the wealth away from most of the people. It's been that way for a long time, and it has only worsened under the -8- years 'neath the Bushies. - - - July 6, 2008 Someone wrote: > I have no reason to believe the founders of the USA > were under the notion of a limited Creator. And > conceptually it is you kind who seek to differentiate > between a universe and a multiverse, the wole of the > multiverse can be described as a universe ... but for > sake of clarity let's us call thing whole the cosmos > and that creation of all things are a product of an > eternal process of evolution. > from that perspective do you disagrree with the following? > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men > are created equal, that they are endowed by their > Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among > these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Technically, the aspiration for equality is noble, but point-in-fact, due to both genetic differences and to the inequality pervasive in this country's long-lived dispensation iterated in the previous post, we are not created with equal opportunities for life, nor are we created with equal opportun- ities for the pursuit of happiness. Liberty, to the extent that America can be a country in which individuals are free from economic slavery, therein resides true liberty, and in that, the country has thus far failed. True freedom, true equality, true liberty, and true opportunity to pursue happiness, the greatest hope for those resides in the pro-human scientific efforts to free us from the limits of our natural evolution, as well as from political efforts to view equality (aka, egalitarianism) and pursuit of happi- ness as potentially freeing for all, by virtue of its ability to lift everyone to a better world in which poverty, disease, naturalistic threats, and human-caused disasters become a regret- table part of our past, rather than an ongoing risk to our present and future. - - - July 7, 2008 Someone wrote: > [...] I still wonder if you are a soulless throw > back ... evolution is complex. Pitiful comment/insult, "soulless throw back". Was that an attempt to criticize my passionate embrace of rejecting the anti-human aspects of religion, as well as rejecting the premise that an anti-human (by religions) contradic- tory (by religions) created (by men, mostly, but followed by women, in large part, in modern times) God should be believed in, feared and loved? - - - Someone wrote: > Because we have often failed to live up to the nobilty > of our national purpose does not negate the the truth > of the DOI As stated, the "created equal" aspect of the DoI is patently false, from the standpoint of genetics (that the writers of the DoI had no knowledge of) and from the manner in which much (if not most) of our fate is predetermined based on genetic facts of which none of us has any control whatsoever over our genetic destinies, among them the proba- bilities of getting o cancer, o type 1 diabetes, o mental disease, o depression, o heart disease, o schizophrenia, o birth defects, o alzheimer's, o Parkinson's disease, o lupus, o hay fever, o Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, o strokes, and o our actualized physical appearances and personalities which are genetic- ally predetermined to a large extent. - - - Someone wrote: > we have made great progress ... at the price of war > and great humility and even constitutional ammendment > we have freed all citizens will to except the responsibilities > of self government - even women are now free from the > yoke of chattle slavery. That didn't occur until the 20th century, revealing a blatant flaw in the DoI and the Constitution's failure to create actua- lized equality for all Americans from the get-go. - - - Someone wrote: > And revolution of self government which was pushed forward > by the DOI is still spreading amoung mankind. > A slave is compelled under the statues of a sovereign nation > by brute force (usually torture) to work soley for the benefit > of another. An economic slave is compelled under threat of death and poverty and high risk of being imprisoned or killed and high risk of suffering social and health con- sequences deleterious to survival (not to mention all the brainwashing Ameri- cans are subjected to from birth to induce them to become economic slaves) to work primarily for the benefits of the rich and powerful. - - - Someone wrote: > Today each and every citizen of the USA is free to choose to > their occupation. And have a vote which they may exercise > whereby they participate in the process of self government and > thereby are not taxed without representation. Further if the > rights of anyone, citizen or not, are violated they may seek > redress in open court. > The only people in a condition of servitude in the USA are > convicted criminals. You're blind to economic slavery. - - - Someone wrote: > Our courts are still quite flawed. The legal system favors > the rich and is rasict in effect though not in letter of the law. > Still there is still due process. > Anyone can even found a political party ... and if they have > the charisma for it can change the system completey via due > process. > Our system is flawed because we are a government of the > people, and people often make errors. You've mentioned the DoI as a source of pride for you. I've merely pointed out its shortfalls, and until you realize that the DoI has shortfalls (and isn't 'holy', just as the so-called 'holy' bible and 'holy' quran and 'holy' vedas have their shortfalls, and aren't 'holy'), you'll realize that its failures can and should be addressed, directly and incontrovertibly. - - - Someone wrote: > "free us from the limits of our natural evolution" your > buddies in the Khmer Rouge tried that once (almost > word for word as I recall) ... it didn't work very well. Your flames fall empty (as lies), and that group did not institute pro-human anything, instead instituting mass murder, something this country's religious majority should be able to identify with being that their found- ing faith was used, for close to 2,000 years, to discriminate against, torture, or mur- der those who disbelieved or who believed in a deity or deities in a manner they dis- agreed with. - - - Someone wrote: > and who the hell are you to declare the limits of the human > race? Read that paragraph you referenced again, as your brain misinterpreted the paragraph in a manner so far removed from what was stated that it casts serious doubt on your ability to rationally deal with the utmost promise of the most positive aspects of human potential. - - - Someone wrote: > Poverty (in the modern USA) is most often the result of being > born into a difficult circumstance and lacking the self disipline > to overcome such. [...] Self-serving right-wing guilt-tripping rich-engrandizing misperception that most Americans are suffering from regarding the way they've been influ- enced to blame others as causal in what- ever poverty or other maladies they're suffering from, and to dispossess their own selves of all-but a minute amount of responsibility to energetically and passionately oppose the system of eco- nomic enslavement most are currently entrapped by (as well as to energetically and passionately oppose all of the other maladies). - - - July 14, 2008 Someone wrote: > [...] I consider the Creation of all things to have > been accomplished via evelution, including the > human soul. [...] Typo? As for the naturalistic proces- ses entailed in the physics of evolution, at what point, if any, do you view those as deviating from naturalism and tran- sitioning to a supernatural (i.e., non- natural) miraculous realm many refer to as "God"? If you do believe that there is such a point, what evidence, if any, do you have to support such a notion, and what evidence, if any, do you have that such a being (or beings) typically re- ferred to as "God" actually exists? Put another way, do you have any evidence whatsoever that naturalism is finite, that it ends in the past, and that all that exists prior to that end is supernatural, typically referred to as "God" by those of various reli- gious faiths? To carry that thought further, what scientific principle would you use to support a contention that magic beings and magic places which defy the laws of physics (via events oft- times called "miracles" by believers) are anything other than manifesta- tions of human myth and imagina- tion, along with a huge load of pre- tense, deceit, and devious manipu- lation of the human psyche from a very young age? A wise (but devious) sage once stated "Promise them a pleasant immortality, scare them with thoughts of an unplea- sant immortality, have them get on their knees and think they're talking to a sup- posed almighty being, asking it for things, tell them that supposed almighty being loves them and may answer their requests in a positive way, tell them to fear what will happen to them if they don't believe you, and if you start that process at a very young age, you have a very good chance of getting them to believe and do almost anything." Seductions, promises, -and- fear, the foundation stones of all religions, present and past. - - - July 20, 2008 Someone wrote: > [...] > patriotic Americans hold the all are equal and are > endowed by our Creator with inalienable rights [...] Clearly, all are not equal, based on the irrefutable evidence I've presented in this thread, based on genetics, based on life circumstances, based on the manner in which life deals different hands to each of us. As for aspiring to equality, that has thus far not been the modus operandi of the U.S., in far too many instances, though pro- gress has been made in some areas. As for the creation of each of us, that is a naturalistic process far beyond the limited understanding that the writers of the DoI had. As for rights, including the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that has been addressed in this thread as to the suc- cess and lack thereof in the U.S. meet- ing those goals, thus far. - - - Someone wrote: > [...] > the success of the USA is due to its recognition > of human rights (and the source thereof) and its > willingness to not use righteous might to destroy > those who (like you) have no respect for human > rights You're incorrect. I have great respect for human rights. The source of all is nature, every last iota of everything flows therefrom, including all the contradictory imag- inations that evolved apes have come up with and asserted as Truth regard- ing supposed magic 'all-powerful' be- ings (allah, jinns, the devil, devils, satan, jesus, god, holy spirit, angels, vishnu, krishna, etc. -- see religions for all the contradictory tales, none of which have any evidence whatsoever for exist- ence outside the human imagination). By the way, your so-called source, what does that source offer in the way of human rights to those who don't believe in it in the supposedly 'right' manner proscribed by religions? Per many believers, eternal death or eternal torment are in the cards for those folks, and I guarantee you, that's as big of a ZERO in the way of human rights that can be imagined. Nah, it's not human rights that your reli- gion is about, it's believing and following and frightening folks into following and brainwashing young children via seduc- tions and scare tactics, and all that, just look at what the result has been, a long list of bloodshed and torture and freedom- denied and the cause of all that resides in the so-called holy scripts of religions that followers like you still promote as Truth, no evidence required, for believers say just believe based on trust in hearsay and magical tales, many of which have been irrefutably proven to be fabrications -and- deceit, loaded with contradictions -and- anti-humanism. - - -